Grade 12 prospective students

Hi Guys,
it was great to speak to so many interested students at the Ontario Universities Fair this past weekend. If you have any further questions about iSci, feel free to post them here, and current students will do their best to answer them honestly and accurately. Hope to see you all at Fall Preview on October 30!

I want to thank you for all the presentations to date. I've been to a couple of presentations last year (as a grade 11) and now again as a grade 12. I am very interested in the isci program and will be applying for admission next Fall. The question I have is how do the current students compare their isci experience to their high school experience with respect to workload and grades? Any opinion you have would be greatly appreciated.

Well, university in general has a much higher workload than highschool does. And, because of the nature of this program, iSci's workload tends to be heavier than average. You will definitely notice a difference - iSci demands lots of hard work and effort. But keep in mind that this is also true for any first-year program.

As for grades, there is a good chance that your university marks will be lower than your highschool marks. It is possible to get a 12 in ISCI 1A24 (90% or above), but it is also likely that your grades will drop significantly. My advice is not to worry too much about grades right now... it's too early for that!

If you have any more questions, feel free to post!

Hi Steven,
thanks for courageously making the first post. It really depends on your high school background. Some schools, especially private schools, can have quite different work loads than others. However, as Adam mentions, you can expect an increase in work between high school and university. Obviously, everyone coming into iSci has a 90+ average coming out of high school. While people's marks did drop from grade 12 to first year (which is normal), in most cases it was not extreme, and was less than would be expected in a "normal" program - that's not because iSci is easy, just because we're over-achievers.

Hi Guys,

I'm also a grade 12 student entering university next year interested in the iSci program. My only concern however is if you guys really nitpicky on what choice ranking I put the iSci program as (because I have heard that some universities such as UofT want you to have them as your first choice). How big of an impact will it have on my chances of acceptance?

*Side note: I'm also considering applying to Waterloo for Life Sci, and UofT for Life Sci as well (just because it's close to home).

Thanks : )

Anne, I chose iSci as my first choice, UofT Life Science as my second choice, and I received early acceptance from UofT. I think your courses and your grades have more of an impact than the ranking does, from my experience. I hope this helps

I put it down as my last choice ... but here I am! So no worries Anne.

I believe that for iSci the ranking is more to help the people who send out acceptances. If everyone ranks iSci as their number 1 choice, then far fewer acceptances will be sent out then if everyone ranks iSci as their number 5 choice.

I was under the impression that universities weren't even allowed to base acceptances on ranking order. Maybe things have changed in the past two years. Obviously not everyone who expresses interest in iSci will end up doing the program. The ranking helps administration figure out how many acceptances to send out, in the hopes that they end up with their target number of students. (It's all plugged into a computer algorithm that spits out how many offers to send out. It's tweaked a little bit each year to improve performance). So basically, order should have no bearing whatsoever on acceptance.

Feel fry to ask any more questions you may have about iSci! We're always happy to talk about our program.

Hi guys, so I have a couple of questions about the iSci program.
This program sounds great, and when I first heard about it, I was super excited. So it is my first choice for a program. What was the admission average last year for the program? Are there any things that I should undertake this year to supplement my application? And I don't know if this will be known, but is the program very competitive?
Thanks!

Hello Ryan, great to see that you are interested in iSci!!!

In terms of admission average, the official cut-off average last year was high 80s. However I believe that the actual cut-off average was higher. It all depends on the year. If there are more applicants, they will raise up the cut-off even higher. This year, there would be much more applicants considering our program is relatively new, and more people are finding out about the program. So the safest bet is low to mid 90s, considering current students in iSci had highschool average from low 90s to high 90s.
In terms of the supplementary application, it has been designed to see whether you are well-suited for the program. So that would mean that there is no such things as a definite answer. As long as you can substantiate using your personal belief, thats all you need. When you are answering, be honest.
What do you exactly mean by "competitive" ryan? Competitive as getting into the program, or during the year? In terms of getting in, I would have to say that this year will be more competitive that last year. Once you get in, we do not compete against each other The program is structured so that your friends will help each other out. Also the profs are there for you to succeed. Because out program is very small, we help each other out

feel free to ask more questions Ryan I hope I clarified some of your concerns

Hi Ryan,
for the past two years, the lowest average to be accepted into the program has been about a 91. That being said, all supplementary applications above a certain mark (which I don't know, it's somewhere around 88-90) are read. Acceptance is then based on a combination of marks and supplementary application responses. The students who have gotten in with 91 averages beat out students who had much higher averages but had weak supplementary applications. As word gets out about iSci, which is still quite new, it is expected that there will be more applicants each year. However, efforts are being made to ensure that all students who would be good candidates for the program are given equal chances. Regardless of how many applicants there are, iSci will not become a program requiring 95%+ for consideration. Those are not the type of students who normally succeed in the program. Rather, we aim for students who are more well-rounded, interested in science, and know how to problem solve and think outside the box.

I hope that helps,
Solomon

Thanks for the fast replies guys, I'm sure you're really busy, so I appreciate the answers, they were both very thorough!
Mid-terms aren't out yet so I'm not sure what my mark will be, but I would guess it'll be between 92-96 this semester. And yes, by competitive, I meant in terms of getting in. I hope that you wouldn't compete with each other, only in a positive encouraging way. So it sounds like my marks will be fine, I'll start writing out some answers soon for the supplementary application. What really interests me about the program is the interdisciplinary approach, with the research based learning. Its such a unique program! Although this will be my first pick, what other programs did you guys apply to??
Thanks again,
Ryan

Hi Ryan,
the only other thing I applied for was a general first year science at Guelph. I had no idea what science interested me most, so hoped to put off a decision for one more year with Guelph's general first year. Luckily, I got into iSci and it was a non-issue.

Hi there, Im wondering what programs I should apply to and I want to know: whats different about iSci compared to more well-known life science programs? What kind of things to you learn and do?

Hello Jae! Great to see that you are considering iSci!
So life science program tends to focus more on biology. So you will be taking courses with 700 other students in a traditional lecture. It is a good program if you are only interested in life science.
iSci uses different sciences and we find connection between them to solve modern problem. For instance, our four research projects come from the modern problem: mission to Mars, drugs, renewable energy and cancer. If you like all sciences and enjoy group work, iSci is a great program.
Aside from contents, we also have 40 students in class (which is one of the smallest program). This is beneficial as we can easily get help from peers and profs. All profs knows us and we call them by their first name. Majority of mark in iSci comes from group project
i hope that helped. If you have anymore questions, don't hesitate to ask

Hi guys!

I'm applying for university this year, and isci is sooo coool!! I was definitely torn over deciding between bio, physics and chem and now... it looks like I might not have to !!

One question though: is there room in the program for electives? like say, I want to take some programming courses? (I know! this program definitely is already encompassing a ton already so expecting electives might be unrealistic, but oh well, gotta ask right? =D)

Thanks a lot!!! (I'm sure you're all super busy! )

I want to know what the costs are...not quoted ones but how much you guys have shelled out and are expecting to pay over the 4 year period of the program

My marks are ~ 95+ and I'm fairly confidant *cocky* that I can get into the program but i've heard stories floating of people who come out of Healthsci @ mac with 40 grand debt (some OSAP, some bankloans)

I really love all of the sciences and i want to persue post grad studies(most likely in physics) but i'm really worried about the cost...i've been considering like a math/physics program @ UW instead just for the co-op...

So maybe post some your 1st year costs breakdown and also how much you expect to pay over the 4 years?

thanks

ArneSJAM,

Hey, I can't really answer any of your questions about costs because I'm a grade 12 student as well but don't be too sure about getting into iSci. I went to Mac's open house and the iSci representatives mentioned last year that they had applicants with 99% averages who didn't get offers of admission because of their supplementary application.

It appears the supplementary application plays a large role in your acceptance. I remember someone saying that the students who were rejected (but had very high averages) had weak supplementary applications but I believe "weak" is a bad term. Someone, such as yourself or myself, is not going to submit a "weak" application. The students that were rejected but had those near-perfect averages just portrayed themselves as individuals who wouldn't mesh well with the program (and that's not a bad thing). The reps advised to be completely honest on the SA and that's what I plan to do because I don't want to get into a program that doesn't fit my personality.

For those in 1st or 2nd year....

On the supplementary application, did you use two academic references or one academic and one non-academic? I know for jobs and maybe even some other programs using a variety of references is better but iSci seems very academic based so I'm not sure.

Thank you in advance for any replies.

Hello Tina, Arne and Adam. Great to see that you all are interested in iSci!
Tina. Yes iSci do have room for electives. iSci 1A24 covers 24 credits out of 30 credits. This means that you are able to have two electives. First year iSci currently have one elective each term. As you proceed to second year and third year, you will have more electives.
Programming is definitely an interesting course (as I used to be a programmer), but you might not be able to take it. Depending on how your iSci class is scheduled, it could potentially conflict with the programming course. Programming is under Faculty of Engineering, so if you are really interested it would be a good idea to have a look at its website.

Arne. I would have to agree with Adam. Being confident "cocky" wouldn't really do anything. Remember there will be lots of other students like yourself who will be applying this year. Most of the students that I talked to in the open house/fall preview day seemed to have a strong academic background.
In terms of cost. Yes McMaster is quite expansive especially if you are living in residence (approximately $6000~$7000). However there are quite a number of iScis who commute or live off campus. At the same time there are entrance scholarships, and you can always apply for OSAP and bursaries. In my case, im payed about $8000 and hopefully i can win some scholarships for next year.
In terms of cost break down, about 6000 is tuition, 2000~3000 is food, and 6000 is residence (these are all estimates because they vary for different students).

Adam, being truthful in the application is a very good idea! If you get in and find that the program is not fit for you, it can cause conflicts.
I believe that the two academic references would not really matter. I had my highschool department head to be a reference, and I also had a volunteer coordinator of a hospital to be my reference.

Great to see that you guys are thinking ahead. If you have any other questions, please ask!

Thank you very much for the quick reply James. I just thought of another question as well. I was looking forward to finishing exams before Christmas in 1st year university instead of at the end of January (like my high school). That way, Christmas break is a true vacation where no big projects or exams are lurking ahead.

However, since iSci is unique and runs all year long, do you know if you are still going to have to do work over the break? I'm not sure if you're a first or second year student (I'm thinking first unless you have a late birthday or haven't updated your age!), but I was just wondering in case you know your schedule in advance or actually are a 2nd year student.

Oh, one more thing (sorry!). At the open house, one of the 1st year students mentioned each 1st year student is paired up with a 2nd year student who acts like a mentor or something? Is this a temporary arrangement that just helps 1st years ease in initially or a year long thing? Or did I hear wrong? I think it's an excellent idea!

Anyway, thanks again.

Hello Adam! Yes, you guessed correctly. I am a first year student. Also, no, you do not have to do work during the break. Technically, I don't think its legal for them to give you work during Christmas haha. At the moment, I currently do not know the schedule for term 2. So I don't know if you can really study ahead. I mean you can always read additional chapters from textbook if you are really into it.

Yes the first year student is paired up with a second year. We call this a "big sib" program. So yeah, you can think of them as mentors. It is not a temporary thing. This will continue throughout the undergraduate studies. So right now, I have a big sib. Next year, I will have a little sib while having the big sib (for for the little sib, my big sib would be like grand sib) This is designed to promote interaction between students in iSci program.

Just to let you know, we did have a small assignment to do over the break last year. Although you won't get a huge project, work over Christmas could happen... and I don't think it's illegal because ISCI 1A24 is a full-year course.

Glad to see that so many people are interested in iSci!

Hi guys, I just want to ask if the integrated content of this program will give me credit for specific courses, for example:biochemistry, physiology, calculus. I am asking this because some professional schools (ie. Waterloo school of Optometry) I am interested in have specific prerequisite courses, and i want to know will this program cover those specific courses or will i have pursue them with my electives? Thanks

Hi Henry,
iSci courses count towards specific courses insofar as McMaster prerequisites are concerned. You would be unable to take calculus outside of iSci, for instance, because we cover the content already. McMaster recognizes that the two courses are equivalent, and would communicate this to professional schools. We cover certain biochemistry courses, but I don't know if they would be the ones required. You would need to do the research yourself, and potentially take upper year biochemistry courses (for which iSci biochem would count as a prerequisite) in your electives, depending on how much biochemistry they professional schools want. We don't do any physiology (as far as I know. 3rd and 4th years are still pretty mysterious, but I don't foresee any physiology) in iSci, so you would need to take those courses in your elective space.
Hope that helps!
Solomon

nice Santa.

Thanks for your reply Solomon , I am going to try to contact the professional schools as well to try to get this thing cleared up. Also, what do most of you guys plan to do once you graduate from iSci?I really like the program, but it seems to be structured more for students going into research rather then then those aiming to get into professional schools. If so, then do you think life sci would be a better fit for me?
On another note, I can't believe its only 20 days until Christmas, lol this year just went by too fast!

hey henry, this would be a great pre-optometry program -- you get the physics lab hours and necessary biology/chem courses required.

the program is very versatile, this is definitely not an explicit pre-med program (try health sci for that), and it is targeted as a pre-masters/phd program.

that being said, the program is meant to open way more doors than close doors, and if you can get into isci, then i would argue it is better than lifesci in every regard (better profs, closer relations to students, small class sizes, more fun assignments, better community, etc.)

My take on this question: iSci is definitely designed with research in mind. We spend a lot of time in labs and learn quite a bit about research techniques, collaboration, etc. Obviously, not everyone in the program is planning to pursue a career in research. Many of us are hoping to get into medical school, and many others don't know what they want to do after this. Some of us are really turned off by the idea of spending almost a decade in school after this, which is pretty much required for research in some areas. iSci is a very skills-based program, focusing on inquiry, problem solving, research, presentation, teamwork, labs, time-managment, etc. and these skills are transferable to any career or post-graduation options. The individual attention, collaboration with intelligent, motivated peers, and learning environment you will get in iSci put you on another level over the hundreds of students in life sci, and should give you an edge in interviews etc. when applying to professional school.

Thanks alot for all the help so far guys, much appreciated

Hi there everyone, I just have one quick question: are the marks bell curved at all like they are at other universities like u of T? Because that would mean that it must be pretty hard to get a good grade because everyone is of such high caliber academically. What are marks usually like for first year?

Thanks

Hi Taha,
obviously iSci doesn't impose a 70 average or anything, because all the students coming in have 90+ averages, and while you can expect marks to drop, that would just be silly. Outside of iSci, professors do aim for a specific average, so your electives may have bell curves imposed on tests (usually they have to curve up, not down though) to hit that target range. In first year, most of us had 10 or 11 averages (between 80 and 90 in non-Mac speak).
I hope that helps, and please feel free to post any more questions you may have!
Solomon

I'm not exactly sure what your big 'revelation' is. I think it's fairly obvious that a supplementary application demonstrates general competency. And the iSci website states that there is 'no formula for a good Supplementary Application' - so yes, as far as I know there is nothing specific you must include in your answers in order to get accepted.

However I would argue that a good supplementary application has an additional use that you have overlooked:

The questions on the application should challenge you to think twice about whether the program is right for you, and whether you are actually interested in an intensive science program that involves a lot of group work. For example, I was sure that I wanted to apply to ArtSci, but when I looked through the supp app questions, I could already tell that the program wasn't for me. I found the questions frustrating, and I would have needed to make things up about myself to answer them properly. But I enjoyed coming up with answers for the iSci supp app - I didn't see it as work, it was actually kind of fun. And that's how I knew that iSci was the right program for me.

Hey Adam, thanks for having an interest in iSci, but I have a few concerns with your last post.

I strongly disagree with you saying that the students who can write a supplemental application "possess some level of intelligence" and that the content doesn't really matter.

Firstly, some of the most brilliant students who might be great students for iSci may be unable to write a strong supplemental application and fail to make an impact on the professors. Yes, it is unfortunate, but sometimes luck plays a role, and it would be very arrogant to think acceptance to iSci is 100% based on your merit and puts you in some of type of higher echelon over others.

However, yes, the supp. app. is a large part of the consideration, and I really hope everyone is as honest as possible in their supplemental applications, and is not writing things for the sake of it. If you hate group work, be honest and say that, as it is a very fair view. They are not looking for ideal grammar, amazing flow, a specific idea, or the most brilliant ideas; simply someone who will do well in the program under their considerations. Someone who perceives this supplemental applications as merely a way to prove that they are better than others, I guarantee you, will not be accepted to the program.

They are specifically not looking for the best students, but rather the best students for the iSci program. That should really be the revelation for all supplementary application programs (Health Sci and ArtSci included). They are simply niche-type programs that desire a students of a certain type, and that's what they are evaluating for in these applications.

Hi iSci-ers (is that what you guys call yourselves? )

I'm really interested in the program, but I'm just wondering as to whether or not you're able to incorporate co-op into your timetables? Because with the heavy workload and whatnot, there must be scheduling issues right?

It's just iScis actually

Co-op is not really an option in iSci - there would be no time, and none of the program directors have suggested that there will be an opportunity for co-op. I expressed interest about it to one of the profs and he said that it wasn't really possible, unfortunately.

Co-op wouldn't really work for iSci because of the modular nature of the program. Because all our courses are full-year, you wouldn't really be able to leave for a semester and then come back. Instead, iSci faculty encourage us to find our own research placements over the summer, a rewarding experience undertaken successfully by a number of iSci students last summer.

I have a question about the group work. I know the program puts a large emphasis on the group projects, but I've never been a fan of group work, because, as one of the 1st years put it during the Fall Open House, "we were all the students in high school who ended up doing all the work ourselves." I always end up doing most of my group projects because I want it up to my standards which I'm sure you can all relate to.

The reason why I'm considering the program is because I'm assuming group work is much more dynamic and fair because everyone is willing to contribute and has good ideas. Did any of you not particularly like group work in high school but then found the experience to be much more positive in iSci? Or did all of you thrive off group work in high school? If that one 1st year is anything to go by, then not all of you came in loving the "team" aspect.

Ok, thanks again. Merry Christmas and I hope your exams are all going well.

Hey Adam, same question many of us were asking ourselves when we applied.

To put it bluntly, you soon realize the Think Space is a roomful of people used to pulling the weight of their entire group towards standards only they strived for. It was a hilarious experience for me, realizing how useful the selection process (with the high average cut-off and supp form) are in collecting people like this. I used to work alone whenever I could in high school, but iSci changed all that. Everyone in your group is a capable and willing individual or they wouldn't have gotten into the program. We also have group contribution forms, so yes, it is the dynamic experience you think it is.

I hope that helped, all the best with your applications!

.,m.m.

And one more thing: I really appreciate what all of you are doing for us gr. 12 students... it helps a lot! Honestly, thanks so much!

Hi Urfa,
It's great that you're so excited about iSci and university in general. In the past two years, no students have been accepted into iSci with averages below about 91%. However, the supplementary applications of students with 89% averages were read and evaluated. So you can get in if your supplementary application is truly exceptional. We students don't really have a very good idea of how the acceptance procedure works: we aren't involved in it, and it seems slightly secretive.
The learning environment in iSci is wonderful. It is very collaborative and students generally support and help one another. This is one of the best things about iSci in my opinion. Our main challenges have had to do with managing our work loads for iSci projects, assignments, midterms, and other courses. It takes getting used to, and is part of adapting to university for all students. The best way to succeed is to identify a program or courses that you're interested in and that way you will be motivated to do well. But you already seem to know that.

I hope this helps!
Solomon

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Hey Urfa
Good luck in your application procedure ..In terms of switching programs. Once you enter life science, you will not be able to transfer to iSci in the second year.
In terms of tips, it is hard for me to say because different students have different styles of learning. Once you enter iSci, it might feel a little bit overwhelming but everyone starts to learn how to manage time.
I personally believe that the most enjoyable part of iSci is teamwork and research projects. If you are really interested in what you are learning, you will learn a lot of things. Also, I like the fact that iSci profs are very approachable.
Students might struggle with time management. iSci incorporates all science, meaning you will learn all sciences. This would mean that you will be having quite a bit of assignments and homework. On top of that there are electives and projects.

James

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Not a problem Urfa! I am glad that you are asking lots of questions

Lets put things in perspective:) Yes, there are different type of students. Some may have to work harder than the other. This will be true no matter where you end up. However that should not prevent you from getting to your goal. If you believe that iSci is truly the program for you, wouldn't it be worth trying?
Yes, people in iSci had high entrance average. However you must keep in mind that average is not everything. I personally believe that having the motivation and writing a good supplementary form is much more significant. Personality is what makes you a good fit for the program.
My suggestion is, if you are truly passionate about the program, express it in your supplementary form.

The great thing about iSci is that it requires you to think. It's true the the program is not for everyone, and caters to a particular type of student. It is quite possible to do well in high school by simply learning the material covered in class and in the textbook and then reiterating that information on the test. Those students can also do very well in most university programs, but may not succeed in iSci, which really requires thinking and drawing concepts together. If that is what you like to do, and you are passionate about the program, you would succeed in iSci. However, a small class size and what springs from it is part of what makes iSci special, and it wouldn't really be possible with class sizes of 200, 100, or even 60 (their target). Thus there are admission cutoffs. Nobody has been accepted before with an 89 average, but that is based off a pretty small sample size, and there's no rule that says it can't be done.

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Urfa, you're just like me. I'm not naturally smart either; in fact, I'm far from it. Even as early as Grade 9, I remember I had to work so much to get the marks I did when most of my classmates didn't study and did just as well as I did. I'm still the same way. I can't just look at something and learn it. I need to sit down, with the textbook and lecture notes, and really spend hours trying to understand something. I need to do practice problems, I need to discuss it with my classmates... and really, it takes so much time. But in the end, it's all worth it. =)

You'll probaby find iSci very demanding, and you might have trouble finding the time to sit down for hours to learn something. I did, and I still do. But believe me... it's possible. It won't be easy; you'll be stressed; you'll be overwhelmed. But if you put in the effort and truly want to learn, I promise that you'll succeed.

Good luck with your application!

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